Subject: Systems of houses & Chart No.5
Replies: 12587
Date   : 08 Mar 2001 18:32 GMT
From   : Alex [Denis]
To     : All

Думаю, это письмо (от владельца Натальной карты 5) может быть интересно
участникам форума.

КООРДИНАТОР

_____________________________________________________________________

Good day!

Excuse me for bothering & my English, but: I've more used to English then to
Russian in casual chat now.

I'm very interested by Astrology & all of it's usage in our life. But first of
all I'm interested in common sense. I was risen in family with motto: "If matter
hasn't common sense in it, then it is - bullshit & isn't worth any time spend
for it's learning."

Don't know - you like it, or don't, but Astrology HAS this common sense in it's
"innards". This common sense is very simple - "people differs due to difference
in their date of birth". No more, no less.

Well, - you MUST prove this COMMON SENSE by some sensible and provable reason
for YOURSELVES (in first place!), before you can make any useful (& useable!)
meaning from that. In other words - you MUST realize some physical &
mathematical reasoning in any matter you want to use for any of your gains. In
other case, any "black box" can "blast in your hands" crippling your soul,
self-esteem & reasoning for your life.
It's no case, that you can't use "unreasonable" matter for your gains, it's just
warning that you mustn't "count of it, as granted" - no more, no less.

Well, - after that preamble, I want to go for reason of placing of my chart in
this forum for public discussion. I like "to go through" very many astrological
site & was really pleased to find really "meaningful" discussion about "roots of
Astrology" here in my home, - in Russia.
It's very seldom thing, when astrology site "gives" voice to "alternate
opinion". It's more seldom thing when your "inner feelings" tells you, that this
"alternate opinion" has more "common sense", than "standard way".

I speak about "house placing" problem, that was very good discussed in this
forum recently, & was very good lighted in articles of your main page. Well, I
have no intention to discuss "inner mechanism" of planetary interaction &
influence on living of individual & society. It's very deep & dangerous
"waters". (I have not any intentions to bother anybody.)

I speak about very simple fact: any of us can go out from our home in a night,
rise head & see stars (& planets if it's possible). If you will take compass,
you'll find very disturbing fact - east point of eclipse (Ascendant, if you
wish) in our latitudes NEVER makes rectangle with south point of eclipse. More
than that - west point of eclipse can make 180 degree of celestial arc with
Ascendant only in Equinvoxes! (In other cases longevity of day & night must be
equal in summer & winter respectively. Winter day is shorter than summer because
Sun MUST go lesser celestial arc in winter. It's just - common sense!)

Then - WHAT IS PHYSICAL OR MATHEMATICAL MEANING OF HOUSE PLACEMENT in first
place? If you'll try to find this in astrology manuals, you'll uncover strange
thing: from Ptolemy times NOBODY & NEVER tried to answer this question - direct.
Astrology ASSUMES (by great counts of empiric) that point of Ascendant has great
influence on life of individual (or society), & point of Midheaven - on his
career & his doings. No more, no less. 
Between Ascendant (cusp of 1 House) & Midheaven (cusp of 10 House) you must
place cusps of 11-th & 12-th Houses. Where must they be placed, if angle between
Asc & MC differ from 90? It's the point when we come to very shaky ground of -
Koch, Placidus or Regiomontan:

Each of placing has it's own gains & debilities. But when we met only assumption
of main Axiom of Astrology (standing on very solid base of  empiric), in
different House Placement you can see mathematical mechanism of Cusps
determination! Then you can realize "inner meaning" & reasoning of different
Cusps Placement.

Well,  let's see. First of all you realize that all different methods of
Placement have one & the same Placement of Ascendant & Midheaven. More than that
- it's "actual placement" of this points on "real sky". And we realize - we are
on the "common sense" ground! Hur-rah!

You can make any assumptions & mathematical models, bur "Sky is Real" & any
models of it - is not! It's common sense. You can go out of your home in Norilsk
in winter night & see Sky. And no one planets is Ascend in there! And it means
that: You haven't any Ascendant at all!
Just that. It's common sense.
If Sun (& all other planets) can't Ascend in that day in that latitude - you
can't speak about Ascendant point at all. Because word "Ascendant" loses his
"real meaning" in this situation (no astrology useable celestial body really
ASCENDS in that day - then we haven't Ascendant!) & it's usage is
"unreasonable".
Well, it's bad thing for Astrology. But acknowledging of "real boundary" for
useable method (or science) is more practical & scientific then usage of "pure
mathematical method" corrupting your "common sense"!

OK, you believe in all-mightiness of Astrology - excuse me for my bothering.
Physics acknowledged the situation when light, matter and wave is
inter-changeable in some sense in some conditions and became more powerful from
that! I think that Astrology CAN "sensibly" explain situation with polar-born
individuals. I'm sure that Astrology can't explain it NOW, because: Strong part
of Astrology it's empiric base. When you acquire your astrology data, you can
give your forecast - it's normal situation for any "young science" - "not
realizing it's own potential". In some sense Astrology today is Chemistry in ten
years before appearing of Periodic Table. And it will be in this condition until
somebody find some physical reason what "cause Astrology to tick".
Then now - we just CAN acquire data. And we MUST realize that we are - very
unusual country. We are - very "nordic" in our geographic position. Norilsk &
Murmansk are "unique" big cities placed to North from Polar Ring. You are simply
haven't any "good statistic data" from native-born in this high-latitudes!
Astrology was frown at in Soviet times in our country & other countries haven'
these natives in their midst for any helps for us! 
Today: Today I can tell you one strange thing, that I found in very interesting
manual on "china Nature Philosophy". It's very dreary & boring thing in total (&
about Chinese Foreign policy - not about Astrology!), but:

Strange phrase: "Middle-Earth Empire (i.e. China) must prosper, because EACH
PERSON HERE CAN DEVELOP HIMSELF UNDER NORMAL & NATURAL LAW OF HEAVENS". Sounds
very pompous & I wanted to take it as usual Chinese pompous bullshit of that
times, but:
Very strange reasoning after that:
"When you see Heaven, all celestial bodies go in one & the same direction given
them by Heaven Law - from east to west, from left to right. It's normal order of
thing. Each of celestial body placed itself in one of the twelve celestial
houses - one after other under Heaven Law in reverse order & situated there as
long as big these houses."
(Very good explanation: for IV century before Christ, do you like it?!)
"Every individual rise & prosper due to placing of celestial bodies in this
houses according time of placing this bodies in this houses. Man develop more
virtue ruled by celestial house, if house is big, & less, if house is small.
It's necessary to develop all twelve parts of man's virtue for rising to grown
man. But it's more necessary to develop one parts more than other - good soldier
braver then bad, good scientist is smarter then bad & good politician is more
shrewd than bad." 
(No complaints. It's good & sensible for me. Your opinion?)
(Now: Drums is raised. Most hitting me parts of this manual.)

"Sun & other celestial body can go to other direction. If you go to South from
Middle-Earth Empire you cross unseen line & in some summer day you will see Sun
on the North going FROM RIGHT TO LEFT. It's very bad sign - it means that Sun &
other celestial bodies NEVER enter some celestial houses, but situated in other
houses two times around - by direct & and reverse moving. Individuals, or
country can't normally develops in this condition & any government will be weak
& corrupt in that latitudes. It's the main reason - why Middle-Earth Empire
doesn't try to acquire lands of southern barbarian: (bla-bla-bla: And later:)
The same situation is on the North. If & when we destruct northern barbarian we
can't cross other unseen line - line where Sun never Ascend in Winter, or never
Descend in Summer. We simply haven't some of celestial houses there &
individuals can't develop corresponding parts of their virtue: (bla-bla-bla:)".
   Strange thing. I immediately come to the political Chart of Modern World. I
can't detect any meaningful country between both Tropics! (If "meaningful"
country lies in that latitudes, it's capital always - more North then Cancer, or
more South then Capricorn!) I can't detect any "meaningful" country more North
then North Polar Ring, or more South then South Polar Ring ;) (try guess -
why?).
If you realize that Norilsk is situated closer to Pole then most of Antarctic
Polar stations: Well, do you remember of Spielberg "The Thing"? This station on
two hundred of kilometers far from South Pole, then Norilsk from North! And our
"american friends" seriously think that in that latitudes can prosper just icing
& "The Thing"!
  Hey, Norilsk-born people! You are Great Heroes, just because you was simply
born! You MUST be proud of it. (All other words must be said to other people:
Yeah, it's great place for it's resources. But in other countries: Oh, well. One
of very smart China thinker make very good & reasonable point two & half
thousand years ago - why it is unhealthy to born people to North from North
Polar Ring. And it seems to me - that it is common sense in his reasoning. Oh, I
know: Astrology was banished in my country some years ago & can be banished
other time, if we try to repeat reasoning of "this stupid Chink". Excuse me.
I've digressed.)

  Well, about my own natal chart. And my own House placement. Dear Coordinator
specifically underline my main question: "How I can resolve my own domestic
problem not changing of my place of living." I was happy to find one of the
first response: "Why you use Koch as your house placements?" Good point. Simple
answer: "Why not?"
  Let's see in mathematical reasoning.
  Tg(D(12))=-cos(a(MC)-2/3*C)/(sin(a(MC)-2/3*C)*cos(E)+sin(E)*tg(F)) , where -
D(12) is cusp of 12 house; cos(C)=-tg(E)*sin(a(MC))*tg(F);
F - latitude of bornplace: bla-bla-bla:.

  It's Koch placement. It's just definition of one of the non-angular cusps.
(You must repeat process for 2,3 & 11 house). It's more simpler - when you try
to imagine all process more graphic. Do you want to see Placidus?
It's more complicated: But if you like to see it - graphic, you realize that in
core - it's only method of approximation of possible placement of your cusps.
You can't do 10th & 12th houses very big & 11th very small. It's against your
own common sense. Then their dimension must "corellate" between themselves,
trying don't make very "steep" step between them. Is it a good reasoning? You
must realize, that it's good & it's not.
  We have two "unwavable" parameter: cusp of Midheaven & cusp of Ascendant.
These cusps create two Axis of any Chart. Quadrants of any chart almost always
isn't equal. Then - houses MUSTn't be Equal. Or not?

Let's see Placid. Placid takes MC Axis as main Axis of Chart. It's the reason -
why his calculus is more difficult: you must define Ascendant due to your
latitude & after that go back to Midheaven using this Ascendant. It's very
complicated. But it's very useable due to:
Let's remember - when Placid create his System. XVII century - Century of
Reformation. Luther tell his followers: "Your Life is in your hands! Make it
yourselves & God helps you!" What it means for Astrology? In XVII Century
Society goes to "more sociable" condition. Material success became more
important for people. But any social success must have some "roots" somewhere.
And Luther tell his men: "Your House is your Fortress! God is inside any of you
& you MUST praise Him in your own Language!"
Do you see great appeal to Midheaven Axis in this words? Most important Houses
became 4-th & 10-th in that time & any Astrologer MUST pay great diligence to
this houses. (And 3-rd & 9-th of course - we Must pay great diligence to
Thinking power & Religious Life in Century of Enlightenment & Religious wars!)
  Let's see Koch. Koch publish his system in 1971. World was heavy "hitted" then
by hippi-movement & youngster riots. Social & material success isn't so
important in that days. And Koch system makes Ascendant Axis - most powerful!
Doings of 1-st & 7-th ("Ich" & "them") is more interested new astrological
"generation". Matter of "inner self" (12-th) & necessity to make money, or
health conditioning (6-th) is more important for modern people, then their
religious beliefs, or social standing. It's Koch!
  But - is it right answer?

  My grandmother taught me Astrology. And she NEVER used - no Koch, no Placid.
She used TWO Equal Houses System simultaneously. One System - for
Ascendant-based Equal houses. Other for Midheaven-based.
(I wrote you, because in your site I found article on this matter.)
Her reasoning was next:
  "You can be very fine in social life. And - complete nothing as worker. You
can be very competent and professional man in your job. But: Real bastard in
social life!
  Why? If Astrology is exact science - why one & the same man can be good in
career & bad as human? Why good human can't do anything at all, because he isn't
able to work?
  Imagine not one - general chart, but two - not corresponded at all. In your
case difference between two charts is around 40-45 degree. I like to subtract
ayanamsa to go to sidereal system, but it's no point:
Well, subtract & see! You have two different Charts of one & the same person.
It's you!
In your "personal" Chart Ascendant in Gemini, in "career" - in Aries. In
"personal" - Jupiter is in 10th house & is Ruler of 7th & 10th. More then that -
Jupiter is situated in Pisces in his own sign & house! In Indian sense It is in
Hamsa-yoga, Raja-yoga & else: 
  Pls, tell me - is it good place for Jupiter?"

  I answered - "Yes, of course!" My granny just kiss me & said:
  "NEVER try to guess anything just by any general sightseeing. Always try to
visualize situation! In your case you have:
  Jupiter is your Parents, is - Your Heritage, your Blood. Old men of our people
realize - Fifth Family was completely destroyed by Revolution. Eighth was very
rich & run away from Russia. Second was our Priests & died from hands of
Atheists. All elder Branches of Fourth was Imperial Officers & was slain by Red
Army. Just yours - Sixth Family is stayed intact. They and "Red" younger
branches of Fourth Family of my husband
Is alive now. It's necessary & enough for indisputable helping of you from their
side. It's your Jupiter in Pisces - in his own sign.
  Young generation hasn't this feeling. Old Families is empty sounds for them.
But: Every second of educated person was taught by your granddad & remember him
as Teacher. Everybody knows that - even in prison in time of torture - man from
NKVD (we know his name - he wasn't nice or any good person at all!) order:
"Don't break his fingers, or hit them. He studied violin in St-Peterburg. I've
heard him. Don't break his fingers in any case." Well: They broke his kidneys &
liver, but they didn't broke him. They let him go, because he never give up &
rehabilitate him in 1940: "Eldest son of the Eldest in Sixth Family": It seems
as a miracle in 1940! & he can't get any job in that year, because of his Blood.
Then he goes to Cinema & Restaurant & play violin. And anybody knew - he wasn't
broken. He wasn't broken at all!
Then war began & your granddad went to War, because it was his Duty as man with
Good Blood. Then he returns & government itself asked him his pardon for "ezhov
wrongdoings". But he never returns to Ministry of Culture or Communist Party. He
became simply - Teacher. And all "young generation" praised him for that:. For
his returning to society & good fighting in The War for Russia: No very nice
country for him - personal. But he has his Duty & he did it. And Did it well!
Impersonal. Just that.
  It's your Jupiter in 10th House. Is it good? See your father - spoiled man. Be
son of so "exalted father" is more difficult, then you can imagine! OK:
  
  Your other granddad was "cursed". He desecrate Ancient Altar & take me - "main
priestess" as his wife. But all of our military relatives & russian friends had
great envy on him for that. Because all of them said: "We had to do it! We had
to be cursed and die in his place!" You are surprised?
  You must remember that time. Baron Ungern come to Russia with his great army.
He named himself as "God of War, Death & Destruction". I don't want to enter
some occult matter in that, but: He REALLY was God of Death & Destruction -
reincarnate! He went very long & laborious occult path to ask God of War enter
him & God of Death make his wishing REAL. (This Ungern was bad, stupid, but -
very strong willed:)
  He cracked & broke line of "Red defences" & began to kill thousands of people.
Just that. He WAS God of Death - it's explanation!
  Then one of the young Red commander come to our Altar, because he realize that
God of Death haven't Power to Destroy Spirits of Life & Healing & ask our
cooperation. And we explain him that "Death" can be stopped just "Life" itself,
but everyone who try to disturb Spirits of Life & Healing MUST die. (It's
complicated - Spirits of Life help to create powerful Medicines: & Poisons, of
course. Then every Spirits of Healing is "Spirits of Poison" at the same moment.
Then if you take Spirits of Healing & Life with you, you will be POISONED in the
future.)
  Well: This Red commander (your second granddad) desecrated Altar & took
"Spirit of Life" with him. And: I must follow "Spirit of Life" then I became
wife of it's bearer. When we came to brigade of your granddad he show "Spirit of
Life" to his people & said:
  "I'm cursed now. I will die when Spirits of Life will come in their Force. But
now - all of you is protected from God of Death & Destruction. Maybe some part
of my curse fell on you. Well:
  Death Reincarnated come here. Thousands & thousands was cut by it. Great Evil
was reborn by crazy & weak man. Army of Death comes here. Just one way to stop
them. They will be stopped by Army of Life. And each of you MUST to pay for that
- Spirits of Life take our spirits & souls:
  Because in far future it'll come day when our spirits will come to another
battle with Evil, because Army of Life need it's recruitment as well. Then our
souls can't find any rest after our dying, because our souls MUST to fight for
Life cause very long after that. Maybe - infinite: It's - the PRICE.
   I'm - Christian. I'm afraid of that. But I've already paid my share, because:
I want to stop Death Army. I can't ask you to do the same. I've just inform you
about this situation. And now: Let's go & get this @#$% God of Death in the
Hell, where it Must be placed - today & forever!"
   Then they go & destroy all of Ungern army in one decisive battle. And came
day & your granddad (brigade general already) died from food poisoning in
Uzbekistan, when fighting with "basmach's":
  He was Christian. He paid greatest Price for Christian for Victory in the war.
And all of our Military friends & relatives realize that: It comes day & his
russian friend ask me to be his wife, because: He was going to go to
Khalkhin-Ghol. I asked him about price & he answer that he aware about it. You
will be surprised - he goes all way from Brest to Moscow & Stalingrad and Kursk
after that - and he don't take any wound at all! Then in 1944 he receive one
"month of absence" & went "to help friend on Caucasus". I knew & he knew that he
can't return from it. "Spirits of Life" is helping when you must fight very
powerful and evil enemy. They fight you back themselves, when you begin to kill
common people:
  That is the case. You are grandson of your granddad & every our friend in
Military will be happy take you in his regiment. Because every Military is very
superstitious inside & everyone of them thinks that "blood shows".
It's the Jupiter in 10th house of your "personal" chart as well. Is it good?
  See on your mother - spoiled thing & you will understand.

  Now you can understand full meaning of very ancient rule of chart
interpretation: "Every great usual Benefic if it rule angular House (except
Ascendant) is - Malefic. If it's placed in Angular House under his own Ruling -
it becomes most fearful, evil & damaging factor of any chart!"

But let's see your "career" chart - Equal houses from Midheaven. Ascending sign
is Aries & Jupiter is Ruler of 9th & 12th Houses, placed in 11th House (in
Pisces). Is Jupiter good in this position?":"

  But then came morning & Shecherezade interrupted her talking:

  P.S. Excuse me for bothering & hairsplitting. By the way - do you realize that
my "personal" chart - "resemble" Koch & "career" - Placid? It is the case - why
when I Ask you question about my domestic Life, I prefer use Koch. But when you
read my writing (i.e. this article) you will see my "career" chart in first
place. And it is - more "resembled" Placid, of course!
But: My main point - it's not Koch, it's not Placid!
  It's TWO equal-houses charts simultaneously! Are you see?

  Sincerely yours - Alex